More Carb Nite and Carb Back-Loading Tips Part 5

More Carb Night and Carb Backloading Tips Part 5a In an effort to stay up to date with all of Kiefer’s prolific work, here is the next series of notes I’ve taken. This is the fourth edition of my Kiefer notes.  Again some of these are from his own site, Body.io and some from when he appears as a guest on other podcasts. For those that don’t know, Kiefer is the author of both The Carb Nite Solution and Carb Back-Loading, both ways of eating that I’ve been playing around with recently.  Here is the official link to all of his guest appearances. Previous Notes:

Kiefer’s special content released when his new Carb Shock supplement came out:

I’ve tried to make sure any of my own personal thoughts are placed in parenthesis. Now that we’ve gotten all that out of the way…. here we go!

Body IO FM 32 – Dr. Bill Lagakos

  • (Bill Lagakos is the author of The Poor Misunderstood Calorie)
  • Kiefer brought Bill on because of the great critique articles he wrote
  • Kiefer appreciated the critique and recognized that there were a lot of valid points
  • Kiefer also really liked the fact that Bill actually read his book, (Carb Back-Loading)
  • Bill is a great guest because his work is all about delineating how different things affect nutrient partitioning (how nutrients are stored in fat vs muscle etc.), and how calories by themselves aren’t sufficient.
  • Now they’re discussing the study quoted by Saab (sp?) – One of the first studies talked about in the critique, the selection criteria was broad.
  • Kiefer brings up the “insulin paradox” which is where people who are gaining weight develop increased insulin sensitivity at night
  • Bill was not aware of the “insulin paradox” but brings up that Saab actually confirms a lot of what CBL says, like glucose clearance being better in the AM.
  • Kiefer was suspicious of the paper because the BMIs had such a wide range.
  • Kiefer stresses that as people gain adiposity (fat) everything starts to change and it’s important to keep this in context.
  • Bill clarifies that ‘insulin sensitivity’ doesn’t mean the same thing in all tissues:  in skeletal muscle tissue it means glucose clearance, for the liver it means supression of hepatic glucose production, and for fat tissue, insulin has an anti-lipolytic and enhances fatty tissue uptake.  With blood measures, when people are exposed to insulin, if you see suppression of free fatty acids, this is an indicator of adipose tissue insulin sensitivity.
  • Kiefer brings up the work he’s seen that if you introduce carbs earlier in the day, that you suppress lipolysis later in the day – and he wonders if this could’ve skewed the results of the paper
  • Kiefer and Bill agree that a lot more research needs to be done in these areas, and that the details are painfully nuanced.
  • Rocky chimes in that CBL and CNS will have different effects on people who are obese, and so CBL may not work well for obese folks.
  • Bill has not read The Carb Nite Solution
  • Bill’s followup critique on CBL is based on his interest in circadian rhythms, but has found that adipose tissue seems to have increased insulin sensitivity as the day progresses, going in the opposite direction of skeletal muscle.  He does qualify that the studies he’s refering to measure things differently so teasing out the data requiers a very nuanced effort, so he is still very cautious of the results.
  • It’s important to examine the population that is being selected for
  • Rocky says that because he is a family physician, his patient population is skewed towards diabetes, insulin resistance, impaired glucose tolerance, so CBL isn’t the best protocol for them, but Carb Nite is very effective.  So the population that is being selected for actually gets lost when analyzing all of these papers.
  • Bill admits that the population subject wasn’t something he took into account, and re-examining one of the papers that he quoted, he now sees that the patient population was in females with gestational diabetes, which is not very applicable to the general population.
  • Kiefer says he should’ve been more clear at the beginning of his books that, there are still a lot of issues that still need to be addressed, and when these issues are addressed, it’s mostly done in sick populations that are metabolically deranged.  We don’t address them in healthier people that work out.  Kiefer refers to studies that are done in athletes that show that if someone is a highly trained athlete, it almost doesn’t matter what the composition of their diet is.  It’s only the calories that matter that determine whether they gain or lose the same amount and type of weight.
  • So if you talk to someone who only works with athletes, who only preach calories in and calories out, that reflects their experience… but is not applicable to the general population, because these people never step out of that population that they normally work with
  • Kiefer asks Bill why he started to deviate from the conventional western scientific approach to nutrition.
  • Bill said because his main focus was in biochemistry and molecular biology without much exposure to dieticians, and nutrition was just a side interest, he just somehow ‘miraculously avoided’ being exposed to the conventional wisdom paradigms (heart healthy diet, low fat diet, etc.)
  • Now Kiefer asks about Bills’ conclusion that to minimize storage of carbs in adipose tissue, it’s best to eat carbs before working out… because Kiefer is completely on the opposite side of that.
  • Bill says he doesn’t feel very strongly about it, and says that he doesn’t think it will affect things very much if you eat carbs 40 min before or 40 min after working out.
  • Bill also says he appreciates the impact that exercising in the fasted state will have, ie increaed lipolysis, increased autnomic nervous system activation, he was just thinking that maybe to preserve lean mass.
  • Kiefer says that he’s read that if you have low insulin and low blood glucose levels going into training, your muscles are more sensitive to adrenaline and you have a larger and more rapid release of adrenaline.  Kiefer thought this was a superphysiological state, but now realizes that this might be the baseline state that you want because in order to mobilize intramuscular glycogen stores, that relies heavily on muscular sensitivity to adrenaline.
  • He says he missed this the first time around, and this is why you don’t want carbs around from recently consumed food so you can preserve the muscular sensitivity to adrenaline.  Unfortunately, Kiefer says he doesn’t have any direct studies comparing performance over the short term from switching from carbs before training vs just making sure glycogen levels are full before training.
  • Bill’s take on this is that it sounds very reasonable, and clarifies that at this point they are talking about two different patient populations.  What Kiefer’s talking about is more applicable to heavy lifters and athletes, whereas who Bill is targeting people who’s goal is low insulin levels as much as possible… and that if these folks take carbs before working out, the workout induced adrenaline release will attenuate the effects of the released insulin.
  • Kiefer responds that in this case, when adrenaline and insulin are essentially fighting against each other, neither one can do their job well.
  • Bill concedes that this makes sense.
  • Kiefer says that despite not having clinical trials and research, he’s noticed that a lot of people report in the first few weeks of CBL, they’ve seen noticeable increases in strength, which he posits can be due to the increased sensitivity to adrenaline during the workout.
  • This is one of the main reasons Kiefer recommends no carbs before training… because of the performance advantage
  • Kiefer also says that you can argue that being able to deplete intramuscular glycogen helps preserve lean mass better than trying to introduce amino acids… we still need more research in this… but there are clues pointing to this now.
  • Kiefer now brings up NMR glycogen studies post exercise.  Bill is not aware of these studies.  Kiefer says that the NMR studies show real time glycogen recompensation and what the major factors are.  There are great studies showing that there is a 30-45 min window immediately post workout where glycogen repletion is completely insulin independent.  And then after this window, for the next 2-3 hours, glycogen repletion is completely insulin dependent.
  • So there is a small window for the non-insulin mediated GLUT 4 translocation, which is why it’s important to eat carbs immediately after workout.
  • Kiefer notes that Alan Aragon… and another guy who argue that it’s not important to eat anything at all after training, fail to mention these NMR studies because it will invalidate their arguements.
  • Kiefer asks Bill what his PhD work was in… he studied animal intestinal absorption of dietary fats… unfortunately none of this work is applicable to us now
  • Bill says our body is exceptionally good at absorbing fat.  We could eat a pound of butter and absorb the entire thing… without wasting a drop!
  • Kiefer asks if there is an upper limit to fat absorption because of the forums guy (man.. this dude get so many mentions in these podcasts!) who was consuming 6000 calories of olive oil, and after a month he complained because he didn’t lose any weight… despite not gaining weight.
  • Bill says, he’s guessing the dude absorbed all the fat he was consuming, then Bill quotes a study from 70 years ago where they gave a guy 500 gm of butter in a single feeding, and weren’t recovering any fat in feces.
  • Bill says we are capable of absorbing so much fat because our bodies have a lot of enzymatic redundancies to process it.
  • Alex asks if the body has a preference for a type of fat to absorb or if it’s all absorbed the same.
  • Bill responds by saying that the longer the fatty acid chain and the more saturated it is, the worse it’s absorbed.  And these are quick to form calcium soaps…  Overall, these fats are not very soluble.
  • Kiefer and Bill discuss the ‘2nd meal effect’ which helps explain why after eating a mixed meal, can get a somewhat fast rise in blood fatty acids… despite the fact that it takes a long time for ingested fat to be absorbed and processed through the intestinal cells and lymphatics and liver.  The fast rise in blood fatty acids is because there are intestinal cells that store fat and immediately release them immediately after a meal.
  • Bill confirms that these ‘intestinal lipid droplets’ is a brand spanking new field (Kiefer really is on the cutting edge…)
  • Kiefer talks about a study, that showed that the insulin index of the meal you eat before going to bed will predict and effect the insulin released of your breakfats next morning.  So if you have a very insulin stimulating food before going to bed, your insulin release with breakfast is higher than someone who had a low insulin release before bed.  This starts to skew some of the stuff you’d look at with circadian rhythms.
  • Rocky is amazed at the volume of Bills tweets (I agree… so many links and studies sent out per day!)
  • Bill’s current interest is in the circadian rhythms and how essential it is to have a good nights sleep.
  • Bill discusses a study in which all the participants started out losing weight, all eating isocaloric identical diet.  Had half sleep 5.5 hrs a night and half sleep 8.5 hrs a night.  Amazing that the short sleepers lost way more muscle and way less fat than the long sleepers.
  • This one detail illustrates how important it is to have good sleep.
  • Kiefer wants to know if this was a mixed diet in this study.
  • Turns out… yes.. it was a mixed diet, and probably high carb.
  • Kiefer argues that sleep is not as important as we make out because, if you’re on a mixed diet and you are not getting enough sleep, on average your cortisol levels will rise.  Cortisol in a vacuum is actually pretty good because it stimulates release of glucagon, stimulates lipolysis, and stimulates gluconeogenesis from protein break down (I’m not too sure about the benefits of this last item).
  • But when you introduce insulin into the picture, cortisol shifts towards more negative aspects of metabolism.  Glucagon is no longer as effective in breaking down glycogen for sugar but is more effective in breaking down protein for sugar.  When cortisol and insulin are together, they prevent lipolysis and stimulate pre-adipocytes to differentiate into mature adipocytes.
  • Kiefer argues that if you are on a low carb, ketogenic diet, you would be more able to hormonally deal with deviations in sleep patterns.
  • Bill agrees that this makes sense.
  • Kiefer says he notices that when he goes through periods of sleep deprivation he experiences more fat loss than at any other time… he eat’s very low carb a lot of the time when he’s doing this.
  • Rocky says he was going to say the exact same thing.
  • Bill currently spending a lot of time working on his next book about nutrition and circadian rhythms… which is just about done.  He’s about to send it out to publishers.

Body IO FM 33 – Mark Sisson

  • (Mark Sisson is the author of one of my favorite books, The Primal Blueprint)
  • Kiefer asks what’s the difference between paleo and primal
  • Mark says the difference is becoming thinner and thinner… primal initially started out as a kinder gentler paleo.
  • Primal started out as a full on lifestyle, how we move, how we sleep, play, sun exposure, microbes in the dirt… all manner of things far beyond the diet
  • Initially paleo was just about diet… but now more about lifestyle
  • The original paleo was lean meats to avoid saturated fats, avoid all dairy, all grains, all legumes, all alcohol… which made it really restrictive.
  • When Mark developed primal, he didn’t want it to be about struggle and sacrifice, so he crafted his eating strategy to include as many foods as possible.  He was a big proponent of saturated fat early on, provided you get rid of sugars and starches.  He also looked at research on red wine that suggested that a little bit of consumption is ok, and he considered it a sensible indulgence.
  • With dairy, and lactose intolerance… everyone is lactose tolerant when born, the fact that you lose it over the rest of your life is sort of an anomaly.  You can actually maintain it with continuous dairy intake.  For people who are lactose tolerant, there’s no reason to avoid dairy… especially things like whole fat milk and cream and butter.. things that don’t have too much casein.
  • With this program, there was opportunity to eat a lot of things that the original paleo diet didn’t allow.
  • Over time, paleo has started moving towards primal allowing dairy back in and saturated fats…
  • Rocky says this all looks straight forward and then asks where it all goes sideways
  • Mark replies that it goes sideways when people become dogmatic.  This is one reason he employs the 80/20 rule.
  • Kiefer has moved back to bay area, not paying attention to his diet, and is just walking alot… and still in great shape.  The only limitation he puts on himself is that when he eats carbs… he only eats it at night.  And every once in a while he even breaks this rule.
  • Kiefer just once wants to eat with people who aren’t allergic to everything
  • With the gluten free crowd, while Mark thinks that some people really do have serious issues, most people can probably get away with a lot more than they think they can.
  • Kiefer asks about Marks opinion on the whole casein and A1 and A2 cow thing.
  • Mark says the A2 thing is really starting to pick up.  There’s a company now called A2, and there are lobbying efforts in Australia.  He thinks there’s something to this idea that some people have a difficult time digesting casein from A1 cows, and that there’s a lot of work investigating this, but Mark hasn’t seen enough of this to be thoroughly convinced of this…
  • Rocky agrees with this position…
  • Rocky brings up his observation that there is a subpopulation who go paleo/primal/low carb who develop abnormalities in their lipids (like me!) and Dr. Gundry alluded to the notion that this A1 casein issue may play a roll in the abnormal lipids.  Dr. Gundry said that when he removed A1 casein from these folks, it resolved the lipids.
  • Rocky says he tried removing A1 casein for a month, but it didn’t really make a difference… but it might not have been a long enough time
  • Mark doesn’t think the lipids thing is related to A1.
  • Neither Mark nor Kiefer nor Rocky drink milk…. they do drink heavy cream, have butter, and cheese… but these are very casein depleted
  • Mark says that he’s ok now with certain types of beans because of their resistant starch, and the pendulum against beans is now swinging back
  • Mark refers to the carboyhydrate curve he created and says that most people don’t really need to eat more than 150 gm of carbs.. unless they are very physical workers like dock workers, or very high intensity athletes
  • Kiefer goes on about his ideas on the microbiome… when we our healthy, our gut bacteria adapts and becomes healthy, when we our unhealthy, our gut bacteria then becomes unhealthy
  • They all agree on importance and benefits of becoming a fat burner, and not dependent on carbs.
  • Mark says one of the reasons we get sick is because stress is an immunosuppresor.  If you are a sugar burner and don’t eat for a few hours, the brain which is now used to a regular supply of glucose and doesn’t know how to use ketones, the brain induces adrenal gland release cortisol which has lots of detrimental effects: induces gluconeogenesis to break down muscle tissue into amino acids to make more glucose for the brain; stops all growth processes, so bones won’t take in calcium.. which is partially why women who are under stress so much now have low bone density; and cortisol suppresses the immune system
  • Glad Kiefer brings up the stuff he was talking about with Bill Lagakos, about how the new research is showing that cortisol actually isn’t that bad, UNLESS we are a primary sugar burner.  If we are a primary fat burner, cortisol actually does some great things… it helps us tap into glycogen stores, release body fat more effectively, and is not immunosuppressive.
  • Kiefer says he’s been able to improve the performance of folks, like marathon runners by getting them into fat burning mode, and then super compensating them with carbs the day before the event, so that during the event all they need is water.  They have access to their fat stores AND their glycogen stores.
  • Mark refers to Ben Greenfield’s prior experiment duing a ketogenic iron-man who eventually needed gels to get him through the race
  • Mark also talks about fatchancerow.org about folks who rowed from California to Hawaii on a ketogenic diet.
  • Mark says it seems like the longer the distance of the event, the more it makes sense to ditch carbs in your training, and thinks that we’re going to start seeing world records fall as more people take advantage of this… but at that high level will also need cyclic ketogenesis to optimize mitochondrial biogenesis
  • The field of low carb training but utilizing carbohydrate management during the event itself is becoming more exciting.. GLYCOGEN MANAGEMENT
  • Kiefer talks about mitochondria and says carb proponents don’t realize that as carbs are metabolized and converted into pyruvate to be burned in the citric acid cycle, the metabolites formed can actually damage the electron transporters of the mitochondrial membrane, so you get carbonylation, which decreases the efficiency of the mitochondria to produce ATP.
  • So when you train without carbs, not only do you get more mitochondria, but you also get mitrochondria that are more efficient at generating ATP.

Body IO FM 34 – Laura Schoenfeld

  •  She posted an article that ignited controversy about why ketosis isn’t appropriate for everyone.
  • She’s from www.ancestralizeme.com
  • Kiefer is ok with ancestral but not paleo… (Hard for me to understand the difference between the two).
  • She wrote article in response to clients that she’s been working with since February…  (She’s still a newbie).
  • A lot of her clients going on super low carb diets, feeling like crap, fertility issues, adding 50-80gm carbs per day times around their workouts helped changed a lot of their symptoms.
  • People who crossfit 4x a week are actually training more than some athletes… And eating super low carb without adequate 1-2 year adaptation period are just asking to be sick.
  • Kiefer goes on a little rant against BP coffee.
  • He had colleague frustrated about not losing weight on Carb Nite, so kiefer recommended to increase fat intake to around 70% of calories.  Just Jack up the fat.
  • After three days a calorie deficit can have a hormonal effect.
  • She’s found harder time to convince women to up their calories, but guys are excited about eating more.
  • Rocky says that with Carb Nite he doesn’t see thyroid deviations in lab values…. But they have subjective hypothyroid symptoms, and he uses this as a sign to do something different, like upping the calories. Usually the thing is that they need more fat.
  • Rocky doesn’t do rt3, which is not covered by insurance, because it is experimental and can cost 200-300$ (It’s only $59 on Requestatest.com, which is what I use).
  • She says there is theory that low carb can cause increased RT3 with normal TSH and free T3, because of the cortisol changes with low carb diet.
  • Kiefer goes into his cortisol thing on how it is actually a really good hormone when in absence of carbs and insulin.
  • But if we are in a state where we are calorie limited or fat limited, then this is what can screw up the cortisol issues.
  • Rocky asks if Laura has ever tried to increase caloric load rather than adding carbs in first… And she hasn’t tried it.
  • Main issues Laura has seen are mental health and energy related when they go low carb… And it might not be worth losing weight if this is the cost.
  • Kiefer says a lot of the things being said have become dogmatic.. Some of the stuff Chris kresser has written and what keto people say.
  • Her strategy when adding carbs is to do add it at night and/or after a workout.
  • Kiefer tries not to eat vegetables now unless it is super palatable…
  • He had a salmon salad and his gut was wrecked for days… (Wow, sounds like he has a fragile system, or maybe just doesn’t do well with seafood salads!)
  • Seems like the theme of this entire podcast is that diet is individual, and you need to experiment around with it
  • Kiefer likes Laura’s idea that it might be the drastic changes in diets and how that effects gut biome, that causes their problems.
  • Laura discusses new lab working on fecal transplants.  Weird that some people ask Laura about DIY fecal transplants.
  • Kiefer talks about the latest irrational food fear is gluten or dairy.  Kiefer blames paleo for this
  • Kiefer will get a bag of 4-6 filet o fish every couple of months.

Body IO FM 35 – Are Artificial Sweeteners That Bad?

  • They are focused on sucralose
  • Kiefer uses this as another opportunity to rail against paleo because of the recent stuff coming out on how sucralose can affect the gut biome.
  • Kiefer says that at the end of they day, things are just not that complex.
  • Now Rocky has joined Kiefer’s thinking about not putting that much emphasis on vegetables
  • Kiefer says he will eat vegetables if he likes them, but won’t go out of his way to eat them
  • (Kiefer also really likes to bring Alan Aragon… almost one mention per podcast!)
  • Latest Nature article looking at saccharine, aspartame, and sucralose and also a water group, sucrose group, and glucose group.  Done in rats.  They suggested that the rats who had saccharine had greatest glycemic response to a glucose tolerance compared to the other mice.
  • They found that the gut biome had changed in these rats as well as the rats that received sucralose.  Then they did fecal transplant into other rats and they also became glucose intolerant.
  • They also transplanted feces from humans that ate sweeteners into rats, and induced same glycemic changes in those rats
  • Rocky talks about the scatter graph that actually wasn’t very impressive
  • Kiefer says there are receptors for the sweet taste from the tongue all the way through to the colon.  And sweetness can trigger up-regulation of glucose and sodium co-transporters in the GI tract.  So there may be feedback between bacteria and these transporters.  This can be a possible explanation for these changes
  • In the study, aspartame had the least response.
  • Kiefer railing against Paleo’s crusade against things that are artificial, especially if it doesn’t take into account the dose or concentration.  It’s just stupid to think artificial = poison and natural = healthy.  Apple seeds and peach pits have cyanide… and are natural.
  • Rachel Carson also helped promulgate this stuff.
  • Kiefer cautions that he still doesn’t recommend that you replace all your sugar with sweeteners, but just that there isn’t any scientific data out there to justify the fear and villification of artificial sweeteners that is currently going on.
  • Stevia can lower blood pressure, so for people using medications, this can cause issues.
  • Kiefer thinks it’s perverse that paleo champions the idea that natural = good…. and now has paleo health bars, shakes, cricket bars… these are all processed foods.. and Kiefer doesn’t think are very natural
  • Kiefer tells stories about how people he is eating with give him a hard time about what he’s eating, in this particular story an energy drink… (wonder who these people are that he eats with)
  • Rocky says M-F he’s just eating protein and fat and caffeine.  That’s all he eats.
  • Rocky points out that a lot of the studies on the artificial sweeteners are epidemiological and the results are correlative, with no proof of causation.
  • Sucralose – it’s amazingly inert chemical, since humans and bacteria can’t break it down.  It’s ridiculously heat stable.
  • Rocky points out that the concern is that while 70% of ingested sucralose is excreted in feces, the remaining 25% is unaccounted for, which is what people are concerned with.
  • Kiefer says that 100% of it can be recovered within 2 days to a week if you are able to collect all the urine and sweat and feces.
  • It is bacteriostatic so it doesn’t kill bacteria and won’t do anything to your gut biome.
  • At the moment, sucralose causes no problems environmentally, animals, human body, bacteria.
  • It is not broken down in the environment, and this reassures Kiefer that it is inert. (me not so much)
  • Kiefer and rocky chat on the phone about this, and they haven’t been able to find any research that raises concern for sucralose, and even make them even question things
  • Kiefer says even the beta cells have receptors for sweetness, and different sweeteners trigger different reactions in the beta cells to be primed for insulin production or not.
  • Sucralose stimulates beta cells to produce insulin, but there needs to be a certain threshold of glucose before the insulin is released.
  • So if you want to make sucralose look bad, you would eat sucralose first, and then a glucose intervention later.
  • Better to not have carbs with sucralose together.
  • Kiefer wants to take down athlete.io forums because there is too much bro science there. Not enough evidenced based info.
  • If you are metabolically deranged, just the taste of something sweet can cause an insulin response.  Pavlovian effect
  • Can also create this in skinny people.
  • Probably best bet to drink diet soda at night
  • If you are younger, healthier, exercise often, then diet sodas will do one of two thigs. If you are low carb, it won’t do much to you. If you are on carb diet it can cause insulin response.  Take away is if you are doing carb nite, have as much as you want. Stay away from them on carb nites.
  • For CBL, drink earlier in the day. But not with carbs at night
  • If overweight with metabolic issues, then need to be more careful because it can cause problems. If doing CNS, try to avoid it, and if you can’t, try to save it for evenings.
  • For CBL, try stay way from them.. But CBL is not the ideal diet for you.
  • Rocky points out that it can actually help on CN and CBL, and kiefer agrees, because of the increased insulin response.
  • Sucralose also has anti inflammatory effects in one of the papers they looked at.
  • (The audio is kind of fuzzy… Ben’s end is a little muffled)
  • If you are a healthy person, when you first wake up, you have the highest cortisol levels of the day.  This is a good thing in the absence of insulin because it is great at mobilizing fat.
  • Cortisol can also help stimulate tissue repair… BUT it has to be in the absence of insulin.
  • Muscle and body fat are extraordinarily insulin sensitive in the morning.  So if you’re eating carbs in the morning, they’ll be preferentially stored in your body fat because it has an unlimited amount of storage capacity, whereas liver and muscle have limited capacity.
  • When Ben ate carbs in the morning because that’s what everyone told him to do, he found that he was sleepy during workouts, and he started getting fat.  Things started changing when he stopped doing this.  That’s when he discovered Carb Back-Loading.
  • The cortisol spike that you get with training correlates with the most gains.  So you need it!
  • High cortisol all the time is BAD.  Cortisol spikes here and there is GOOD.
  • The higher the cortisol spikes correlates with the lower your cortisol is the rest of the day.
  • Ben does a cryo-sauna (180 degrees below zero) post work out to stimulate an even greater cortisol spike.  He’s found that his general cortisol actually went down.
  • (Kiefer doesn’t add much to the cryo-sauna thing)
  • Ben asks what Kiefer does himself right now.
  • Kiefer trains first thing in the morning 5-5:30 AM, which while it isn’t ideal, it’s the only thing that works for his schedule.
  • Kiefer never eats carbs before 5-6pm.  First part of the day, he’s very fat heavy.  Coffee with heavy whipping cream.  Vegetables with butter.  Breakfast is usually two sausages.
  • Dinner he gauges on how the workout went or how he’s feeling.  Right now he only eats carbs around 3 nights a week, based on subjective feel.
  • 1 night a week he goes crazy.  He talks about going nuts on donuts.
  • The other 2 carb nites are just meat and potatoes… and sometimes a dessert if it looks good on the menu.
  • Ben asks what he should do to build as much muscle as possible before the Arnold composition and optimize his body composition.
  • Kiefer says for maximum muscle mass, might need to get more advanced.  Ben trains 5-6x a week.  So he will be eating carbs every night, the carb load is hard to judge, so because Ben has a lot of muscle mass, he will need more carbs, and because he as a significant training load, he will need somewhere between 400-800 gm carbs per day.  Hard for him to say since he’s not working directly with Ben.
  • Kiefer suggests to start at 400 gm and then titrate from there.
  • If that’s too many carbs in the evening, Kiefer also brings up glycemic back-loading, he doesn’t like to use this very often, but for guys with lots of muscle who need a lot of refueling, introduce carbs in early afternoon, like at 1pm, but very low glycemic index.  Appropriate for people 250+ lbs.
  • A low glycemic carb would be anything, like rice with fat… white rice + butter.  Peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
  • This is for people who can’t get enough carbs later in the day.
  • Kiefer says it’s important to wait an hour post workout before stimulating insulin spike because it lets some of the catabolic effects set in which then primes the cells for greater nutrient uptake later.
  • The only time an athlete should eat within the 1 hr window is if they’re really focused on glycogen replenishment.
  • The 1 hr window thing also includes avoidance of proteins, whey, and aminos.
  • You need the catabolic processes to be activated for a certain period of time, to take effect.  You need this hormetic effect to push the genes in the right direction for maximum growth expression.
  • The exception to this is with strongman competitors, guys with 4 hr workouts, they need introduction of carbs about 30 – 60 min into their training.
  • Most people should just get a fat load before workout, and if you have protein it shouldn’t be fast absorbing, so you should eat meat, eggs, etc.
  • Then do the workout and mobilize body fat and intramuscular glycogen.  This is more effective because there is no insulin available.  If you workout after eating carbs or aminos which stimulate insulin, the insulin cuts off the muscular access to intramuscular glycogen and intramuscular triglycerides.
  • Protein should be 1-1.3 gm per lean mass in pounds of body weight.
  • First half of the day, just worry about fat content.  When post training, load up on protein.  Protein better to be eaten at night.
  • For most people 2 gm per lean lb of body weight.
  • Kiefer favors back-loading the protein supplements.
  • Kiefer again says that the idea of a cyclic ketogenic diet probably doesn’t exist… because even if you’re eating carbs just one time a week, you probably aren’t getting high ketone production (my experience differs with his here and I have the blood ketones to show it!).
  • Kiefer says the most important thing is to keep insulin load as minimal as possible during first half of the day.
  • Kiefer’s post workout shake when he was putting on size had around 120 gm of protein!
  • Keep protein products down earlier in the day so that you can keep insulin as low as possible.
  • Ben asks Kiefer what supplements he recommends for CBL: Creatine.  Caffeine.  Fenugreek.  And of course his own supplements.
  • Fenugreek can increase insulin excursion.  Sucralose also increases insulin output.  Simple proteins and complex proteins are good.  Casein is good because it has a very nice hypertrophic response for a long time.
  • Caffeine by itself does not cause release of insulin.  If you have caffeine with carbs it will stimulate an even greater insulin release.
  • Ben asks if he trains in the morning, should he eat carbs 1 hr after his workout or wait until the evening.
  • Kiefer says in general, no.  He should have eggs and coconut oil after the training session.  He has found in limited instances that females preparing for figure competitions, if they train first thing in the morning and have half a brown banana after training, will lead to better results… and this only works in 50% of women, but never in men.
  • Kiefer hates the whole, ‘if it fits your macros’ thing.
  • Kiefer says try not to go more than 12 hours without food from when you go to bed to the next day.

5 Responses to More Carb Nite and Carb Back-Loading Tips Part 5

  1. Charles Grashow says:

    Have you seen this?

    http://freetheanimal.com/2014/12/starch-resistant-version.html
    Total = 179; Trigs = 84; HDL = 89; LDL (Friedewald) CALC = 73

  2. fred says:

    “Kiefer now brings up NMR glycogen studies post exercise. Bill is not aware of these studies. Kiefer says that the NMR studies show real time glycogen recompensation and what the major factors are. There are great studies showing that there is a 30-45 min window immediately post workout where glycogen repletion is completely insulin independent. And then after this window, for the next 2-3 hours, glycogen repletion is completely insulin dependent.
    So there is a small window for the non-insulin mediated GLUT 4 translocation, which is why it’s important to eat carbs immediately after workout.”

    I wonder why Kiefer now recommends waiting an hour before having PWO shake? Any thoughts?
    Also, thanks so much for taking notes!

    • BJJ Caveman says:

      He recommends waiting an hour now, to allow for the hormetic effects of the workout to set in. Once you allow for the appropriate amount of stress and damage to affect the muscles, they will be primed even more for growth when the proper nutrients are provided.

      Seems like he changed things a bit didn’t he?

  3. Wood says:

    I like the whole idea behind cbl. But I am still a little skeptic. I tried – I admit not to the letter – but lot of people got shredded with the gold old method..

    And as the post workout thing changed, how can I now, that the eat the carb at night thing won’t change to breakfast is the king thing back…

    I dont think it is a good idea to change fundamental thing like post workout mutriton, but probably better than preaching a not so optimal..

    I like your blog very much by the way…

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